View source for Forum:A Transcripts Retelling of Events

{{Forumheader|Redwood Grove|name=A Transcripts Retelling of Events|subject=Transcripts|notes=|closure=no formal closure|archive=true|date=04:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)|user=Cook Me Plox|type=content}}

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There are four things to choose here: how dialogues are listed in the main namespace, how they are listed in the transcript namespace, dialogue duplication on transcript pages, and what things are considered transcripts for the purposes of navigation.
__TOC__
==Main namespace dialogue listings==
Dialogues in the main space currently use {{T|Hastranscript}}, which links to the mainspace page's direct transcript page and to an smw search listing all transcripts where the mainspace page is linked to via {{T|Transcript list}}. Navigation between these all of these pages is cumbersome, especially when searching for something. There is no easy way to know from this section what dialogue it is apart of and relying on the prose above isn't always ''reliable''. While researching lore for {{Permalink|14281024|text=this edit}}, as someone knows very little, it was incredibly annoying to source because I don't exactly know who, when, or what I was looking for and which page it'd be on. Increasing the information from hastranscript on what transcripts are available at a glance is helpful. Any list will be automatically generated and not manual if that is not clear.

'''Options and examples for "''how dialogue-linking is listed or displayed in the main namespace''"''':

{| class="wikitable"
!1 - No changes.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/4pndbUj.png|left|900px}}
|-
!2 - List every dialogue in an * list.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/kDX1TIg.png|left|900px}}
|-
!3 - List every dialogue in banner.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/2GGtrbi.png|left|500px}}
|-
!4 - Change {{t|Hastranscript}} to only link to one page that contains all transcripts.{{efn|As is now, it would go to the default transcript page, but if no navigation is added there, it may also go to the SMW page currently linked by Hastranscript|name=pagelink}}
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/f0Dqk94.png|left|900px}}
|-
!5 - Modify {{t|Hastranscript}} to function similarly to {{T|main}} to only link to one page that contains all transcripts.{{efn|name=pagelink}}
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/ib130wf.png|left|500px}}
|}
{{notelist}}

===Discussion===
'''#3''' - I'm relatively fine with any, but in order 3, 2, 4, 5. The dialogue section is usually close to the very bottom, and won't obstruct much on a page even if it gets long. I think it is the quickest navigation wise to list everything on the main namespace page. There are probably better ways to do it visually (I do not like RSW's formatting for it like here {{RSL|Mage of Zamorak}}).  Ultimately I don't care much as long as dialogues are all listed somewhere. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 01:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#2''' – For the main namespace, I agree including all transcripts a character speaks in makes a ton of sense, and I think lists are the best way to go about it. Banners in the middle of a page don’t look great on a full-sized monitor, and the visual mock-up given in the proposal I suspect will end up looking a little bit silly with a fuller list of transcripts (as it leads to a sort of ‘T’-shape to form). [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 01:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#2''' - Fuck banners, list everything, maybe some form of separation between weird shit like postbags {{User:Crow/Signature}} 04:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#2''' or '''#3''', no strong preference for either option: #2 looks simplistic, #3 is more attention grabbing and consistent with other "This article has a related page on <subject>" boxes like {{t|HasMMG}} and {{t|HasStrategy}} but also lone floating messageboxes that aren't at the top of the page don't look that great IMO. [[User:Shayani|Shayani]] ([[User talk:Shayani|talk]]) 08:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

==Transcript namespace dialogue listings==
Navigation between transcripts is non-existent. It would be extremely useful to have information on involvement in other transcripts while also reducing how long to takes to traverse between them. Overall similar situation to the above, just somewhere else.

'''Options and examples for "''how dialogue-linking is listed or displayed in the transcript namespace''"''':

{| class="wikitable"
!1 - No changes - Don't list them at all.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/jUM1h0v.png|left|900px}}
|-
!2 - List every dialogue in an * list at the top of the page.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/x3xhB8q.png|left|900px}}
|-
!3 - List every dialogue in banner at the top of the page.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/63kZCx5.png|left|500px}}
|-
!4 - Make separate headers in the body of the transcript and using {{T|main}} to link to them.
|-
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/94Ciep2.png|left|400px}}
{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/EBdIdzk.png|left|900px}}
{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/TP8PdOZ.png|left|300px}}
|}
{{notelist}}

* #3 is a shitty mockup I did manually with html tags, if you make fun of it, eat a pencil.

===Discussion===
'''#2''' - Navigation between related transcripts is super valuable. In my head, 3 looks nicer if someone could make it not as gross as I, but #2 is the easiest to do, less fine with 4, but I could tolerate it. Same vein as above, if 3 were possible to be less ugly and bulky I would want that. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 01:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#1''' - If dialogue were to be either duplicated or transcribed across transcript pages, linking to the other transcripts would become mostly unnecessary. It is already standard practice to link to the relevant quest in the first header it is mentioned in, which possibly could also contain a link to its transcript. An additional list at the top of the page I fear would bloat the page, especially given the length certain transcripts will have under the conditions of transclusion. Certain scripts like [[Transcript:Reldo|Reldo]]’s already have quite a chonky table of contents there; while vertical space might be free, it can also be wasted. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 01:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#2''' - Fuck banners, list everything, vertical space is free, and I don't think duplication and transclusion is a workable thing right now {{User:Crow/Signature}} 04:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

==Dialogue duplication/transclusion across transcript pages==
Currently, because we do not have an established transcript policy, some pages include ''all'' dialogue '''or''' only non-quest, non-event dialogue. Going back to the lore research example, it is much harder to find topics or words with ctrl+f when they are split across pages. This would be improved with better navigation between them all, however I've also found myself wanting it all on the same page for an NPC. I'm also one of the people that made NPC transcript pages with all of their dialogue including quests (not events) because I found it easier to use. Some interesting things occur without this, if an NPC is only involved in a quest, they will not have their own transcript page. I would also find it difficult to place dialogue from [[Transcript:Bolkoy]] related to variations in the stages of [[Tree Gnome Village]]. It seems semi-unrelated to the quest transcript to include them to an extent. 

Options for "''dialogue duplication on transcript pages''":
# Don't include any dialogue from quest or event transcript pages. Effectively making it pre-quest and post-quest, or standard dialogue. (If it is a quest-only NPC, there will be no individual dialogue page?)
# Include all dialogue via transclusion [[User:Fjara/Sandbox1|example here]]. Quest (and maybe event ?) dialogue would remain on their transcript page and be transcluded. I don't have a full/good grasp of its capabilities and parameters, but this might require '''all''' headers on the same page to be unique, duplicate headers will cause all headers named the same to appear, or only the first. (I can't figure out what makes vs first occur) A template would be made for ease-of-use. This '''does not''' have to be for every transcript, mainly things like quests, but if people want it can do others.
# Include all dialogue via copy-paste duplication.

===Discussion===
'''#2 slightly, otherwise 1''' - Transcluding everything would be amazing for searching with ctrl+f for quests only. I don't think others should be. However the technical side is super confusing and I need to learn more about the DPL to make it occur, because the unique headers kinda suck. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 01:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#2''' – For the transcript namespace, I’d be much in favour of transclusion (if it would be technologically feasible), for a number of reasons I’ll promptly list, and in a very similar but inverted way from Crow, I’d say listing all other transcripts a character features in would become unnecessary if their dialogue is already transcluded. So to formulate what motivates me to argue in favour of transcluding dialogue:
* Like Fjara indicated, the ability to search a single page for a key word seems like a very valuable tool to have at one’s disposal. When writing lore pages, I’ve found myself searching NPC transcripts for certain terms on multiple occasions, and being able to do so on a single page definitely beats jumping between multiple tabs (having to check you got every page before ruling out a character as being irrelevant is not the best experience; neither is finding relevant passages on multiple pages and having to switch between them while writing).
* Separating out quest dialogue sounds tidy in theory, but I suspect will still lead to discontinuities within and between transcript pages in practice. For instance, quite frequently NPC’s will have one-time post-quest reflections they share with the player, which is not usually included on quest transcript pages at present. To me, it’s neater to have these conditional dialogue branches immediately following the quest dialogue sections on an NPC’s transcript page, rather than following an empty header containing only a link to the quest’s transcript. There is also the matter of minor NPC’s often having dialogue variants during a quest, which are required to pursue in order to complete it. Per the current style guide, these ought to be included on the quest transcripts as quest dialogue – which some transcripts admirably succeed in, but often still end up only being transcribed on the pages of the individual characters. The greater parallelism that mechanisms of automatic transclusion guarantee would alleviate this issue.
* This will be a more subjective considerations (but subjective aspects are of importance, and can be discussed), but I believe including quest dialogue on a character’s page increases the narrative cohesion of that page. To have a “Before [Quest]” section, followed by an empty “During [Quest]” section and then an “After [Quest]” section, to me often feels like there’s a narrative hole on the page, an interruption. Moreover, that gap cannot be easily filled by simply following the adjoined link to the quest’s transcript, as it includes all characters, and requires an additional effort in order to isolate the relevant passages of the character you’re looking for. Ideally, transclusion means being able to “read the story” of a character (which would be a possibility at least in those cases where the quest dialogue is not too disjointed), which just feels like a nice thing to have. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 01:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''#1''' - I'd love to support #2, but I don't think what you're suggesting for transclusion is actually feasible so I can't really support it. It makes editing the transcripts significantly more complex (fuck dpl) and seems very easy to accidentally break and not realize you're breaking things. Anything to do with headers and potentially needing to have varying levels of headers on different pages I hate. I'd rather we just link them and people can deal with taking a few more minutes to check things. {{User:Crow/Signature}} 04:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

==Alternate transcripts==
For the purposes of navigation should all transcripts listed be shown in navigation lists (should the above transcript listing questions (1 & 2) above have listings):
* Events, holidays, historic dialogue, and postbags (Maybe god letters?)
* Should they be listed together with normal quests or in a separate list (using <code>;</code>?) and how?
* If no to any of these should they be incorporated elsewhere, if at all?

===Discussion===
'''List all transcripts''' - I'd like them separated or at least grouped by like quest / event / other somehow. God letters I wouldn't mind including but I can see why others wouldn't. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 01:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''List event and historical dialogue''' - Definitely list event transcripts, that feels like a very straightforward thing to do. Historical dialogue, if put on a separate page, I believe should also be listed, given that there would otherwise be no clear path for the user to access them if interested. As far as postbags and/or god letters go, my instincts might differ somewhat: to me, they are texts, not a transcribed form of speech, and so by default shouldn’t be included in the same navigational list, or transcluded on the same transcript page. (Even though speech is in fact also just text in this game, still there’s a separation inasmuch it’s indicated and imagined to be spoken.) In a sense, that’d be like including the text of the [[Farming manual]] on [[Farmer Gricoller]]’s transcript page, which would just be a bit silly. They wouldn’t fit under the standard “Dialogue” header, so if we do wish to link to them, by necessity they’d either have to go in a separate “Textual references” section, or else require a rename of the header to a more general “Transcript” designation, like scenery objects currently have. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 01:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''List all transcripts''' - And separate them clearly. {{User:Crow/Signature}} 04:05, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

'''List all transcripts''' - excluding god letters and non-''Old School'' postbags since the recent ''Old School'' postbags are considered [https://twitter.com/JagexAsh/status/1499001827853021185 consistent with in-game lore]. {{@|Ostentatio}} about postbags, I personally don't see much difference between the NPCs talking in-game and in the postbag. Instead of choosing select scripted dialogue options and getting scripted answers like in-game, it's like players themselves are actually talking (or, well, sending a letter) to the NPC and getting a non-scripted answer.
I would have liked to add the separation between in-game dialogue and the postbags when I were adding {{t|Transcript list}} to postbag pages, but the template implemention seemed to be beyond me. [[User:Shayani|Shayani]] ([[User talk:Shayani|talk]]) 08:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

==Other discussion==
Some of these options work better together and worse with others, please keep that in mind. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 17:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
:Revised {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 00:59, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
::Revised, again. smile {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 01:04, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

<s>'''#2, #2/#4, #1, List all''' - Fuck banners entirely, they look horrible, add a bunch of whitespace on the sides, and I'd say the current banners are worse for navigation than just clear links (fuck "click here" links). Make a section that links all of the transcripts on both the subject page and transcript page. If we link to transcripts they're involved in, we don't need to transclude at all imo. Definitely list all of the transcripts, but separate the weird ones like holidays/postbags visually, ; seems good to do that. {{User:Crow/Signature}} 18:10, 6 September 2022 (UTC)</s>

'''#3 followed by #2''' for hastranscript, having a bit of difficulty picturing the other options at the moment. If #2 is chosen, perhaps a combination of #5 with it (main article link for npc specific, and then quest-specific links. -- [[User:F-Lambda|F-Lambda]] ([[User talk:F-Lambda|talk]]) 23:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

'''Closed''' - I'm not sure what was so hard about this thread (or what the lesson is, really), but this didn't get a lot of attention in this form. I would suggest that means that most users are reasonably happy with the available possibilities, so my cook-sensus here is that Fjara and riblet (and any other interested parties) can go decide however they want to deal with this stuff, and we'll probably be fine. {{Signatures/Cook Me Plox}} 04:04, 17 February 2023 (UTC)