View source for Forum:Change all uses of "Pay-to-play" to "Members"

{{Forumheader|Redwood Grove|name=Change all uses of "Pay-to-play" to "Members"|subject=Naming|archive=true|date=3 December 2018|user=Scuzzy Beta|type=Content|closure=allow|notes=Redwood Grove remains}}

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On the vast majority of pages, we refer to content that requires a membership to access as "Members" content. The notable outliers to this are the training pages (for example, [[Cooking training]]) which link to guides as "Free-to-play training" and "Pay-to-play training". I think it would be much more consistent for these guides to be called "Members training" instead, to match how we handle it on most other pages. 

There are also a few other pages that have the phrase "Pay-to-play" in them, but some of them are new player/account guides (which should  reasonably explain what the phrase "Members" means when they first mention it) and others (like [[Range]]) could easily be switched over to say "Members" instead of "Pay-to-play". [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:17, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

==Discussion==
'''Soft oppose''' - P2P is a well known phrase and is used both inside and outside the OSRS community, as such its usage isn't detrimental. In terms of the new player guide, pay-to-play is only used once in parentheses after members so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. I don't see this as a consistency issue but rather something that should be decided on based on context, if you were to ask me I'd say "pay-to-play" is best used in conjuction "free-to-play", using members in most over cases. {{User:IN008/Signature}} 20:33, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
:In terms of the guide stuff, I think saying "Members (also known as pay-to-play)" is a fine way to explain the term to new players, so I don't think we need to change that on any pages where it's used that way. I understand that "pay-to-play" is a natural counterpart to "free-to-play" but we use the latter term much more often than the former. The main pages are [[Free-to-play]] and [[Members]]; the item categories are "Free-to-play items" and "Members' items", we have [[Quests/Free-to-play]] and [[Quests/Members]] for the different quests. The only place where we use "Pay-to-play" to any extent is in those training guides and even there we really only use it in the title, with even the navbox for the training guides referring to them as "Members guides". [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:51, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
::I did say when used in conjuction, the examples you've given are seperate pages. If you feel Members would fit better within a certain context then you are free to replace pay-to-play with Members in that situation, however, I am very much against restricting the use of language when there's no clear benefit to doing so. {{User:IN008/Signature}} 21:16, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
:::I would like to submit possible "clear benefit": Pay-to-play tends to imply that microtransactions are taking place, ergo it implies pay to win, which in the case of OSRS, is not what payments and microtransactions (in the form of bonds) are about. [[User:Speeddymon|Speeddymon]] ([[User talk:Speeddymon|talk]]) 21:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
'''Soft support''' - As mentioned in my comment above, pay-to-play tends to be used to refer to a game that allows you to pay-to-win. Most big mobile games released these days are pay-to-win. Runescape is the only breath of fresh air with the membership/f2p model and the modest function of bonds being technically a microtransaction does not lend to paying to win. You still have to carefully customize your build if you are looking to win. Please, let's have the wiki stick with Jagex convention and call it Members, rather than Pay-to-play. There should be only a couple of notable exceptions; for example, places such as the new player guide should reference both as a way to explain how the payment system works and demonstrate that you cannot pay to win with Runescape (without breaking the ToS and risking getting the account banned). [[User:Speeddymon|Speeddymon]] ([[User talk:Speeddymon|talk]]) 23:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
:'''Support''' - Hello, Tyler Jarret here. I like this explaination the best. A lot of games are p2w, and Jagex has been moving to a more "Free and Member players" verbage. In terms of OSRS, microtransations are nowhere near the game. Agreed that the new player guide should reference both naming conventions though. {{User:Tyler Jarret/Signature}}  21:23, 30 November 2018 (UTC)


'''Closed''' - The terms "Pay-to-play" and "Members" will continue to be interchangeable depending on the context. For everything else, continue with status quo. --{{Template:Signatures/Scuzzy Beta}} 08:20, 3 December 2018 (UTC)