View source for Forum:Disbar the Speed Bar

{{Forumheader|Redwood Grove|name=Disbar the Speed Bar|subject=|notes=|closure=allow|archive=true|date=04:47, 5 August 2023 (UTC)|user=Jakesterwars|type=content}}

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The main proposal of this forum thread is to replace the graphical representation of [[attack speed]] inside of the [[Template:Infobox Bonuses|Infobox Bonuses]] template with a text-only alternative, fitting a greater amount of detail in the same (or less!) space, thereby allowing us to be more explicit in the information we convey, and resolve ambiguities that have been left unaddressed for quite some time.

The fundamental problem with the speed bar is, of course, that it is conceptually incoherent. As the speed bar fills up further and further, and the speed of a weapon is raised higher, the less frequently a player will attack, and hence the more sluggish they become. Needless to say, this is because neither the facsimile bar graph display nor the numerical value actually express speed, but rather the action delay incurred by attacking, which in turn defines an interval when the attacks are left to re-queue without interruption. The speed bar template currently also displays the attack interval in seconds in the bottom-right corner, but provides no means to arrive at the exact relation between this interval and the speed attribute or overexcited speedometer, which is left as an exercise for the reader. Indeed, a novice user – who may or may not know what a tick is – is less assisted by a graphical aid than resisted by a graphical hindrance.

With the [[Update:Secrets of the North & More!|Secrets of the North & More! update]] was bundled a rearrangement of the [[Equipment Stats]] interface, which now displayed the player's 'weapon speed' in seconds, further split up in a weapon's base speed, coupled with its actual speed upon modification by certain [[Weapons/Types#Ranged weapons|weapon styles]]. In the accompanying tooltip, weapon speed is explained in terms of an interval:

{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/QYtjXg3.png|left|247px}}{{clear}}

Given the notable increase in clarity achieved by this sober format, which simply writes out the length of the interval under different conditions rather than distil them into a single ineffable 'speed' value, the present proposal is simply to steal it. The following mock-up illustrates how an infobox bonuses that incorporates this format could look:

{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/AdxoWBl.png|left|515px}}{{clear}}

The thread will be split up into a discussion on the approval or rejection of the main proposal, followed by a small handful of mundane matters of implementation.

==Called to the bar==
Should the speed bar segments of infoboxes be replaced by an exclusively text-based alternative as proposed above?

===Discussion===
'''Support''' – As nominator. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 03:00, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Please yes''' – The bar is technically limiting, unnecessarily graphical and at worst confusing. No reason to really hold onto it. --[[User:Julia|julia]] <sup>[[User talk:Julia|talk]]</sup> 06:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Long overdue change, the graphic was overly detailed and didn't fit with the rest of the infobox. [[User:Ioticonfo|Ioticonfo]] ([[User talk:Ioticonfo|talk]]) 12:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Yes please. --{{Signatures/Zorak plorak}} 13:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Do it. -- {{Signatures/Spineweilder}} 14:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Cast it into the abyss where it belongs. --[[User:Omnes Ferant|Omnes Ferant]] ([[User talk:Omnes Ferant|talk]]) 14:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - {{User:Crow/Signature}} 03:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - yeet it [[User:YoshiFan12|YoshiFan12]] ([[User talk:YoshiFan12|talk]]) 06:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Yes {{User:Owl/Signature}} 20:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Consensus found''' - Agreement has been concluded on the migration to use text based information over the current design with the image design. [[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

==Naming==
In case a consensus to adopt the main proposal were to emerge, under what name should this information be shown in the infobox? To my mind, three names surface as plausible candidates:
#'''Attack speed'''
#:The current designation, while awkward in certain regards, is a sedimented term among the playerbase, meaning any other name will cause friction, save this one.
#'''Attack interval'''
#:Taking this opportunity to distance ourselves from murky terminology centred on 'speed' allows the descriptions contained in our infoboxes to be as unambiguous as possible, and the concept of 'interval' is easy to grasp intuitively, besides already being featured in-game as well as in our current speed bar template.
#'''Attack delay'''
#:The concept of delay is most true to how the mechanism we're describing actually works, but might be a somewhat abstract characterisation for a less mechanically-minded segment of users. 

===Discussion===
'''Attack delay''' – Although "speed" is the term most familiar to players, and one I also instinctively use, I think the accuracy from the more appropriate term is better in the long run. Might be worth adding a dotted line hover explanation to describe what it is so people don't confuse it with pre-attack delay too much (even though such a mechanic doesn't really exist, but people thought that was the case for ballista for a long time). I'm not too opposed to "speed" either, even though it's a little inaccurate, just because of how common it is in lingo. --[[User:Julia|julia]] <sup>[[User talk:Julia|talk]]</sup> 06:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''(Base) Attack interval''' - Interval is what's used in-game, so that's what we should use. [[User:Ioticonfo|Ioticonfo]] ([[User talk:Ioticonfo|talk]]) 13:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - Despite previous comment, this is what's actually used ingame, and is by far the dominant terminology going back 20 years. Delay will be confused with other concepts and is unnecessarily technical. {{Signatures/Cook Me Plox}} 13:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - I'm surprised this is even a discussion, this has been known as [[attack speed]] since about 2004 (see [https://web.archive.org/web/20050907060203/http://www.tip.it/runescape/?page=combat_guide.htm tip.it] referring to weapons having a certain "speed" in 2005, for example). I think other options will only confuse readers. --{{Signatures/Zorak plorak}} 13:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' or '''Weapon speed''' - Former is fine, and latter is also fine if we want to copy Jagex in the equipment stats interface. I lean towards attack speed since that's what we've been using. -- {{Signatures/Spineweilder}} 14:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
:I should probably add that the [[Template:Speed Bar|Speed Bar]] template is also used in [[Template:Infobox Monster|Infobox Monster]] (as well as [[Template:Infobox Ranged Weapon Group|Infobox Ranged Weapon Group]] and [[Template:Infobox Weapon Group|Infobox Weapon Group]]), meaning the versatility of 'Attack speed' would probably make it preferable over 'Weapon speed'. In the opening statement of this thread I misleadingly (or even falsely) pointed only to Infobox Bonuses as being subject to replacement; I apologise for that inaccuracy. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 17:21, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - It's the term the community uses and many other games use "attack speed" to describe the same thing. --[[User:Omnes Ferant|Omnes Ferant]] ([[User talk:Omnes Ferant|talk]]) 14:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - {{User:Crow/Signature}} 03:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - "Delay" or "interval" might be more correct technically speaking, but "speed" is what everyone uses, so we should use that. It's like how we use "tick" instead of the arguably more correct "game cycle". [[User:YoshiFan12|YoshiFan12]] ([[User talk:YoshiFan12|talk]]) 06:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - per Cook [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack delay''' - More accurately describes what is actually happening. A higher attack speed value to me implies a faster rate of attack, which is not the case. I think calling it a delay just makes more sense. I don't agree with the colloquialism argument, and I also think the "other games" argument is poor, as attack speed in other games like League of Legends refers to your number of attacks per second, so it's usually something like 0.8 or 1.5, and the actual speed increases as the value increases, contrary to what takes place in RuneScape. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 20:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Attack speed''' - I agree it isn't mechanically accurate, but I think it's important to remember that most people who play this game don't think about things on a mechanics level. Attack speed is by far the most common term and I think julia's right that people will be confused by "attack delay", which to me is a disqualifier for now. - [[User:Andmcadams|Andmcadams]] ([[User talk:Andmcadams|talk]]) 20:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Consensus found''' - Attack speed will be  used in the renaming process. [[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

==Rapid differentiation==
Should weapons with a variable attack speed/interval/delay dependent on selected weapon style be allocated a second line so both may be shown?
#Display both the base and the modified values where applicable.
#Only list the base value.

===Discussion===
'''Both''' – There's been too many scenarios where people get confused over us listing the default speed while rapid attack speeds are ingrained in everyone's minds. --[[User:Julia|julia]] <sup>[[User talk:Julia|talk]]</sup> 06:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' - Make it easier for users to use, not harder. --{{Signatures/Zorak plorak}} 13:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' - ¿Por qué no los dos? -- {{Signatures/Spineweilder}} 14:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' -- [[User:Omnes Ferant|Omnes Ferant]] ([[User talk:Omnes Ferant|talk]]) 14:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' - {{User:Crow/Signature}} 03:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' - [[User:YoshiFan12|YoshiFan12]] ([[User talk:YoshiFan12|talk]]) 06:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' - also see range discussion below [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Both''' {{User:Owl/Signature}} 20:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Consensus found''' - We will show both values. [[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

==To link or not to link==
Now we're really getting to the heart of the matter folks: should clicking 'tick' link to tick?
#Tick
#[[RuneScape clock#Length of a tick|Tick]]

===Discussion===
'''Sure why not''' --[[User:Julia|julia]] <sup>[[User talk:Julia|talk]]</sup> 06:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' --{{Signatures/Zorak plorak}} 13:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Per Julia -- {{Signatures/Spineweilder}} 14:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Per Spine --[[User:Omnes Ferant|Omnes Ferant]] ([[User talk:Omnes Ferant|talk]]) 14:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Per Omnes -- [[User:YoshiFan12|YoshiFan12]] ([[User talk:YoshiFan12|talk]]) 06:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Support''' - Per YoshiFan12 {{User:Owl/Signature}} 20:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Consensus found''' - Linking to tick will comence. [[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

==Abbreviating 'seconds'==
I understand this is a somewhat minute matter of secondary importance at best, but should 'seconds' be written out, or abbreviated?
#4 ticks (2.4 seconds)
#4 ticks (2.4s)
#I refuse to consider matters of this degree of mundanity in the forum namespace.

===Discussion===
'''Written out''' – A little less ambiguous, looks nicer and matches with "ticks" not being abbreviated. --[[User:Julia|julia]] <sup>[[User talk:Julia|talk]]</sup> 06:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Written out''' - "seconds" should be written out in full. [[User:Ioticonfo|Ioticonfo]] ([[User talk:Ioticonfo|talk]]) 13:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - [https://i.imgur.com/JJtUY6l.png "seconds" makes the element too wide] if we are also adopting proposal #3. {{Signatures/Cook Me Plox}} 13:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - Easy enough to understand as a reader, and conserves space. --{{Signatures/Zorak plorak}} 13:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Either (conditionally)''' *if* we adopt proposal 3, then I would be in support of "s" for the reason put forth by Cook. [[User:Ioticonfo|Ioticonfo]] ([[User talk:Ioticonfo|talk]]) 13:37, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - The Equipment Stats interface uses '''s''' as well, so it hopefully should not be too confusing. -- {{Signatures/Spineweilder}} 14:26, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - Perhaps I'm misguided but I trust our readers to figure out what "s" means. --[[User:Omnes Ferant|Omnes Ferant]] ([[User talk:Omnes Ferant|talk]]) 14:32, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - Every single recipe on the wiki already does this {{User:Crow/Signature}} 03:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - [[User:YoshiFan12|YoshiFan12]] ([[User talk:YoshiFan12|talk]]) 06:27, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' - [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''s''' {{User:Owl/Signature}} 20:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Consensus found''' - We will move forward with the shorthand ''s'' for seconds in tandum with the design changes to minimize element widening issues. [[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

==Longrange differentiation==
If we decide to show the influence of the rapid weapon style on attack speed inside the infobox, this may give rise to the expectation that the influence of the longrange style on attack range is conveyed as well. Although the impact of a differing attack speed is no doubt greater than the practical implications of a varying attack range, selectively excluding one relation while including another would result in an inconsistency that seems difficult to justify. The mock-up below depicts an infobox bonuses integrating the influences of both weapon styles. Note that it illustrates only one formatting option; feedback is welcomed on how to display these values in the clearest way manageable.

{|
|- style="vertical-align:top;"
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/H9jj3jr.png|left|256px}}
|{{Extimage|https://i.imgur.com/iZeil3U.png|left|256px}}
|}

Should both values be shown if a weapon has a variable attack range, subject to selected weapon style?
#Display only the '''base attack range''', and only the '''base attack speed'''.
#Display only the '''base attack range''', along with '''both attack speeds'''.
#Display '''both attack ranges''', along with '''both attack speeds'''.
#Display '''both attack ranges''', along with '''both attack speeds''', on the condition that:
#*No more than two lines are taken up by the infobox section.
#*If no agreeable styling can be found during implementation that satisfies the above, only the base value for the attack range and the attack speed will be displayed.

===Discussion===
'''4''' - Let's try not to fluff this up by inadvertently introducing new inconsistencies. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 22:43, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

'''3''' – The attack speed ambiguity has already resulted in enough misunderstandings over the years that I'd rather not keep enabling it for the sake of a little bit of screen real estate now that we have an opportunity to rework that section. --[[User:Julia|julia]] <sup>[[User talk:Julia|talk]]</sup> 17:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''3''' - I'm pretty confident we can make it not look bad, and I don't think it should automatically hide on some conditions. [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 20:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''3''' - Information provided should be consistent, at the cost of minor styling consistency. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 20:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

'''1''' - The mock is hard to read at least partially because the values horizontally do not align with each other. We already show this in the combat styles template as well. Personally I would hold off on adding new things until the initial removal of the bar is finalized since I think this will make the reception to the overall change worse.

:I'm not opposed to this idea in general if we think about it more holistically in the future. I think an alternative approach would be modifying the CombatStyles template instead to house this sort of info and make the values reflective of the weapon itself rather than just generic +1 range if on rapid. The mock provided does not make me confident that putting this info in InfoboxBonuses is a good idea. - [[User:Andmcadams|Andmcadams]] ([[User talk:Andmcadams|talk]]) 20:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
::Hey {{@|Andmcadams}} I believe considerations over the smoothness of the transition introduce a valuable aspect to the discussion, so thank you for your reply. That said I'd first like to provide a response to your suggested alternative, that is to say integrating the modified attack speed and range values into the CombatStyles rather than Infobox Bonuses template. I have some reservations about the approach, based on the following:
::*As it stands, our layout order inserts a table of contents between a weapon's infobox and its combat styles, which dissociates the two pieces of information to a degree which I would consider undesirable (for pages with sections on charging and/or passive effects like the [[Craw's bow]] or [[Bow of faerdhinen|bow of Faerdhinen]], this is notable). Of course, the layout order can be reconsidered as part of the holistic perspective you recommend, so this needn't be a sticking point.
::*More pragmatically, a strong motivation to position the base and modified values as close together as possible is to reduce user confusion over the correct values, as arose in these edits to the bows of Faerdhinen: [[Special:Diff/14117713|#1]], [[Special:Diff/14182529|#2]], [[Special:Diff/14350958|#3]], [[Special:Diff/14296017|#4]]. Currently, the CombatStyles template does not sufficiently communicate the impact of selected weapon style on attack speed, and although the proposal to make the hidden bonuses column specific rather than generic would certainly help in this regard, I'm not convinced it would achieve the clarity desired.
::*A final consideration is that placing the two values together in the infobox would bring us in closer parity to how the information is conveyed in the [[Equipment Stats]] interface, which lists the modified attack speed value among an item's various other bonuses. While I would mostly agree the influence of selected weapon style is not so much an attribute of the item itself, and hence may not properly belong in the infobox, still the rearrangement of the Equipment Stats interface can be read as an official acknowledgement of the fact that players associate the modified value more strongly with a weapon than its base speed.
::To return to the matter of how a transition may be received: my perspective would be that if a consensus can be achieved in this thread on the ideal way to organise this information, it could still be decided to split up the introduction into phases as a matter of implementation, if there are plausible practical motivations to do so. If so, consensus over the overall design would stand, but could be considered provisional in the interim. [[User:Ostentatio|Ostentatio]] ([[User talk:Ostentatio|talk]]) 22:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC) 

'''3''' - Per Owl and Julia. [[User:YoshiFan12|YoshiFan12]] ([[User talk:YoshiFan12|talk]]) 01:45, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

'''3''' - Per Owl. [[User:Omnes Ferant|Omnes Ferant]] ([[User talk:Omnes Ferant|talk]]) 03:31, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

'''Consensus found''' - We will move foward with the third choice showing both attack speeds and ranges. The design will more than likely fluctuate in development before going live with the changes, but the current examples are what the initial run will be based off of. [[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

==Final closure notes==
'''Closed''' - We will be moving forward with the redesign prompted in proposal 6 with the following changes alongside it:
* ''Base attack speed'' will migrate to ''Attack speed'' 
* ''Tick'' will be linked to [[RuneScape clock#Length of a tick|tick]] article
* Abbreviations of seconds will remain as ''s'' in context of the conversion from ticks showing the attack speed at base and rapid
[[User:Jakesterwars|Jakesterwars]] ([[User talk:Jakesterwars|talk]]) 04:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)