View source for Illerai:Requests for merging/Combat only pure


{{Rfm top|archive=True|6+ month old thread with no discussion for 1+ month}}
===[[:Combat only pure]]===
Account builds are something that are highly player-specific and will vary from person to person. Unlike Ironman mode, there is no official definition for any type of account build. In my opinion, an article such as this is better suited to being a subpage of an article such as [[Account builds]]. This would allow a place to catalogue all the different player-created account builds (i.e. skilling pures, combat pures, range tanks, zerkers, etc.) in a fashion not dissimilar to [[Money making guide]]s, which are also a form of player-envisioned articles which are not suitable to stand on their own.

====Discussion====
'''Merge''' - As nominator. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 15:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

'''Keep separate''' - I think it would be very good to have individual pages for different common account builds, such as specific common PvP pures and common self-imposed restrictions like skiller pures. Although this particular self-imposed restriction seems to be a bit more niche, I do still think it's a pretty well thought-out article and it could serve as a stepping stone towards getting more articles for different account builds, such as those listed on [[Template:Account build]]. Having a decent amount of info about different account pures encourages more people to write articles about this, which means the pvp side of OSRS (which currently seems to be located mostly on individual clans' forums) could be centralised much more, just like how basically everything else in the game currently is centralised here. Regarding the move to subpages of [[Account builds]]: I don't think that's a good approach. Consider that the same approach ''could'' be used for many more types of articles, such as individual music track pages. People are going to be looking for a 'reverse skiller', not for an 'Account builds/reverse skiller'. These things contain enough standalone information to warrant an actual page, not just a subpage of a page. {{Signatures/Joeytje50|2}} 21:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

'''"Merge"''' - To be clear, Owl's original proposal is for each of these specific account builds to be a subpage of the main [[Account builds]] page. Maybe this proposal would make more sense as a "Request for moving", but that doesn't seem to be a thing so I guess this forum is as good as we're gonna get. Anyways, reading the proposal as intended, I think this mitigates most if not all the concerns that Joey brings up in his response, as we wouldn't lose any information by implementing this change. Grouping related page under a singular main page for organizational purposes is pretty common on the wiki (Money making guides are all subpages of [[Money making guide]], for example_ and I think it makes plenty of sense here. This would also avoid odd cases like [[Berserker (Account build)]] where we have to add clarification to the page name because it's not clear on first blush. [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]] ([[User talk:BigDiesel2m|talk]]) 22:58, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

'''Comment''' - Thank you, [[User:BigDiesel2m|BigDiesel2m]], yes that is what I was trying to get across. Indeed, the reason I chose to Request for Merge is that no Request for Move exists. To be clear, I extend this proposal to most (if not all) [[:Category:Account builds]] pages. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 23:32, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

<s>'''Merge/Move''' - Per Diesel. I think the important thing is to make sure there are links to the subpages on the main account builds page + template, which I know there are, but it is far more important if they are subpaged for access.  On top of that, both as part of policy and as a general rule for future of accounts build pages, redirects from the account build's name would go to the subpage unless something else were to take that page's place, and then we may want to add {{T|Confuse}} or one of those to link if the redirect has been around for a while (maybe?). I just mainly want to facilitate just as much ability for the average user to get to them as before without having to know about subpages. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 13:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)</s>

'''Comment''' - I could see arguments against and for both approaches, but I'm leaning towards keeping them separate as per '''Joeytje50''' comment. If this particular page is going to be moved, I think the same would have to be done about pages like [[Free-to-play account builds]] and individual pure guides. As long as we leave redirects that are searchable and easy to discover, I don't mind how the actual page names if they're consistent. My only concern is that we'd end up with something like ''Account builds/Free-to-play/Strength pure'' to properly categorize them, which seems a little verbose and might be daunting for new users looking to document a new type of account. Either way, I think we should focus on cleaning up the articles themselves and bringing them up to date. It seems that most or all pages related to P2P PvP builds need to be either cleaned up or completely rewritten. Well, many also do don't exist at all. -[[User:PureF2P|PureF2P]] ([[User talk:PureF2P|talk]]) 05:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
:You said:
:{{quote|I'm leaning towards keeping them separate as per '''Joeytje50''' comment. If this particular page is going to be moved, I think the same would have to be done about pages like [[Free-to-play account builds]] and individual pure guides.}}
:To be clear, that is precisely what is being proposed. As per my previous comment, the idea is not to merge but to move all of these pages to their own subpage of [[Account builds]]. I don't know if we need to segregate the F2P and P2P guides; I believe a second-level page should suffice for every article provided they use a consistent naming pattern. Even as top-level articles (as they are now), that question is valid. The reason I proposed this is to keep the Wiki's page structure a bit more consistent. 
:{{quote|I think we should focus on cleaning up the articles themselves and bringing them up to date. It seems that most or all pages related to P2P PvP builds need to be either cleaned up or completely rewritten.}}
:I agree, but whether or not the pages get moved has no bearing on the content of the articles. Part of the problem with these pages may be that many different users have (or will have) different visions about what these pages should be about — but there is no concrete way to prove one player right or wrong. '''The articles are entirely subjective.''' Much like [[money making guide]]s, these pages have generally been left to collect dust by most editors, and as such, are of dubious quality. 
:Moving the pages isn't supposed to solve any problems with the articles themselves. It's just about putting them where they belong, which in my eyes means giving them the MMG page treatment. As a final thought, consider just how many niche account builds there are out there. How do you determine what builds deserve their own articles? What's too niche? Again, much like with MMGs, it's sort of an "anything goes" situation. There's simply too much subjectivity. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 07:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
::Depends on how deep we want to get into the builds, but honestly I'd say there aren't that many that are viable. In P2P, it will mostly come down to an article per defence bracket, as well as some untypical builds that require unusual skills ratio (e.g., strength pures, or low level magic pures with high attack for the staves). I think it's a matter of moderation — pages that are too specific or too similar to existing builds must be merged or removed. Whether all build pages would have enough content to be a top-level article is another story. -[[User:PureF2P|PureF2P]] ([[User talk:PureF2P|talk]]) 09:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

'''Keep separate''' - Since the addition of the [[Emir's Arena]], common account builds based on the combat skills such as the pure, zerker or med got somewhat official, or at the very least recognized in the context of PvP. I think that's enough to earn them top-level articles — and, for consistency, the same can be done for other well-defined account builds specific to both PvM and PvP. A lot of these will be somewhat subjective and will require supervision on case by case basis. In my opinion, a build is distinctive enough for a custom page if it A) provides or optimizes a distinctive combat style in PvP, or B) poses a significant challenge or restrictions on the account. It's difficult to provide a specific set of rules for this, so they would require moderation. For example:

* A 1-defence, 31-prayer build is not distinctive enough from the 1-defence pure umbrella, and should be described as a variant instead in a section on viable prayer levels.
* A Morytania-locked account, while providing a very distinctive gameplay, might be better suited for a general article on area-locked accounts.
* A strength pure that poses a significant cap on the attack level has access to powerful KO weapons at a low combat level, and as such leads to distinctive combat style in PvP. It should be described in a custom article, with possible combinations of prayer and defence described as its variants.

As for the combat only pure, its article does have some problems (mostly related to the way it is written), but I believe it does provide a well-defined and pretty distinctive gameplay that is difficult to put under a concrete umbrella build category other than "accounts with skill restrictions". -[[User:PureF2P|PureF2P]] ([[User talk:PureF2P|talk]]) 19:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
{{Closure|nvm|Prior to most recent comment, there had been no discussion on this topic for over two months. Arguments appear to be exhausted.}}

====Amendment====

I am retracting my closure request due to fact that my original proposal now needs to be amended, as the [[Emir's Arena]] has been added and has in fact cemented ''some'' account builds as official. The amended proposal follows:

=====Amended proposal=====
<blockquote style="font-size:92%; text-align:justify;">Account builds are something that are highly player-specific and will vary from person to person. <s style="color:red">Unlike Ironman mode, there is no official definition for any type of account build.</s> <span style="color:green">With the recent addition of the [[Emir's Arena]], there are now concrete account builds that were introduced by Jagex. The account builds are: '''Max/Med''', '''Zerker''', and '''1 Def Pure'''.</span> In my opinion, <span style="color:green">all account builds outside of these Jagex-defined builds should be considered player-envisioned creations (meaning they exist only within the player's mind and <u>have no in-game basis</u>), and</span> an article such as this is better suited to being a subpage of an article such as [[Account builds]]. This would allow a place to catalogue all the different player-created account builds (i.e. skilling pures, combat pures, range tanks, zerkers, etc.) in a fashion not dissimilar to [[Money making guide]]s, which are also a form of player-envisioned articles which are not suitable to stand on their own. <span style="color:green">Jagex's builds could each receive their own article, or alternatively could be confined to the Emir's Arena article, where the information is most relevant.</span></blockquote>

Please keep in mind when formulating an opinion on this matter that there now exists a clear distinction between account builds that Jagex has explicitly defined, and all the other dozens of builds which exist or may yet come to exist. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 23:33, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

=====Discussion=====

'''Merge''' - Create [[Max/Med]], [[Zerker]], and [[1 Def Pure]] either as top-level pages or as subpages of [[Emir's Arena]]. '''Move''' all other account builds to a subpage of [[Account builds]] or similar article (much the same way [[money making guide]]s are handled), in order to draw a clear distinction between Jagex-defined builds and player-envisioned builds, the latter having no in-game basis. {{User:Owl/Signature}} 23:33, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
:Isn't it weird and sort of bad to separate them. The pvp arena builds are there as builds per the arena, but they also exist outside of it as well in the normal pvp scene, I don't think putting them as subpages of emir's arena makes sense to do and makes navigation/understanding of it very confusing. {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 00:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
::We already have build variants implemented. They can be used to show variations of similar builds throughout the PvP minigames, as well as the PvP meta of the regular game. I think would make sense to either add new PvP Arena builds as variants to the existing pages, or to create new ones (top-level) that are currently missing. -[[User:PureF2P|PureF2P]] ([[User talk:PureF2P|talk]]) 20:23, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

'''Keep separate''' - As per my arguments above, keep all account builds as top-level articles for consistency. Official recognition in a minigame is not as crucial for players that are looking to build a new account; it does however legitimize restrictive account builds as a notable part of the game. Unlike with the money making guides, the number of distinctive and viable account builds (at least in terms of PvP) is much smaller and rather well-defined by the current meta. It comes down to proper moderation: deleting, merging or moving niche builds to a more appropriate place such as generic articles for specific types of restrictions (e.g., region-locked accounts). -[[User:PureF2P|PureF2P]] ([[User talk:PureF2P|talk]]) 05:41, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

'''Oppose''' - Per PureF2P. I also don't think "this is player-defined" inherently restricts us to subpaging things. {{User:Crow/Signature}} 23:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

'''Keep separate''' - While I do like having them located "under the same roof", pvp builds being acknowledged in-game, including with potentially upcoming LMS changes, makes me want to have them all as top level articles. They are builds used in the game officially and unofficially, so subpaging on anything but [[account builds]] doesnt make sense. But since at least some of them ''are'' officially defined, for those I would say they should have their own main (non-sub page) article. And due to that others should too to avoid confusion. Variations of a specific build can be put on the subpage of the main build page. I'm also hesitant to split them between the two because of additions to the game, if they were to add new builds to LMS or PVP arena, it just creates more work for little to no gain. That is speculation obviously, but just thinking ahead to potential PVP updates {{User:Fjara/Signature}} 00:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

'''Close''' - As this thread has been up for over six months, and no discussion has occurred in over a month, I'm closing this due to lack of discussion. -- {{Signatures/Spineweilder}} 03:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
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